I guess i depends on what value you are talking about.

moral values

'moral values' is both a concept and code phrase similar to 'law and order'.  there's nothing particularly moral or valuable about making civil laws that exclude an entire class of citizenry.  similarly, despite its shameful use in the 60s and 70s, there was nothing lawful nor orderly about invoking racial hatred. 

I guess i depends on what value you are talking about.

Well, it's as vague as "moral values." That's what was listed as an option on exit polls and that's what are talked about when debating about whether religion is necessary for morality.

'moral values' is both a concept and code phrase similar to 'law and order'.  there's nothing particularly moral or valuable about making civil laws that exclude an entire class of citizenry.  similarly, despite its shameful use in the 60s and 70s, there was nothing lawful nor orderly about invoking racial hatred.

So, what's your point? Morality doesn't exist? This isn't about whether gay marriage is right or wrong. It's about how supposedly, when one says they voted for Bush because of moral values, it's entirely about religion (even though religious faith was an option on the exit poll), but when one talks about the moral values of a group, such as the Boy Scouts, then people no longer equate moral values with religion, but insist they can originate from a variety of sources.

Ahman Messy, eerrr... sorry I'm an Athiest I mean Right on Messy.

I would like to point out that Family Values does not equal Anti-abortion, it raising your children to respect others and be good to others ect.. That also can be learned from good parenting, not only from the Bible.

'moral values' is both a concept and code phrase similar to 'law and order'. there's nothing particularly moral or valuable about making civil laws that exclude an entire class of citizenry. similarly, despite its shameful use in the 60s and 70s, there was nothing lawful nor orderly about invoking racial hatred.

What? When did racism enter this post?

That's My Two Cents

Hmm...

This is an interesting question. I think that you're confusing the categories (either you or me ). As I see it (being a christian), "Moral Values" have to do with how you live your life and how you treat other people. Values and Religion are far different things. As I understood the exit poll, "values" are just what they say--what a particular candidate holds to be important to them in their life. Religion, therefore, would fall under the category of values, but values do not fall under the category of religion. It's like the square and rectangle. the square (religion) is a more defined shape--there are many less options of how to draw it. The rectangle Is less specific, and therefore it can't be *just* religion.

Clear as mud?

Fillibuster, I agree.

I think the problem now, with the DNC, is that they are equating Moral Values to Religion. I.e. they believe thier lack of Religion is what defeated them. Now it seens like every Big Democrat player is suddenly religious again. Every weekend I see an article on Hillery Clinton attending a mass or I see Rev. Sharpton/Jackson wearing their coller again (I can't remember the last time I seen them with the coller on, before the election).

IMO, it was thier lack of being civil to others is what did them in, not thier lack of Religion.

That's My Two Cents

Excellant article. It points out how those who refuse to learn, will always find a way to fulfill Orwells double Speak.

They claim Moral values, yet they also claimed that Bush got 100% of that vote. I dont remember seeing any poll that showed Bush getting all the Moral Values vote, that just seems to be a guilty assumption on some people's part.

Bleat after me: 2 Legs are better than 4.

I would like to point out that Family Values does not equal Anti-abortion, it raising your children to respect others and be good to others ect.. That also can be learned from good parenting, not only from the Bible

exactly.   unless youre using 'moral values' to mean only a specific set of moral values defined by a candidate or campaign to mean support for a specific agenda as it was in this past election. 

where 'law and order' came in was merely as example.  when politicians in the 60s used it--and the way it was interpreted by and large by voters--law and order didnt mean advocacy of a well run lawful socieity; it meant keep the rioters outta my suburb.

Orwells double Speak

reread orwell please.  there's nothing to fulfill.  Moral Values that are neither moral not valuable is a perfect example of the genre.

That's what I thought at first and was thinking, that's so awesome that our country actually has and votes on moral issues. But, the more I thought about it and gained knowledge the more I realize that a lot of Kerry supporters voted on the "moral" issue, because to them "morality" is a mother being able to choose and that the war on Iraq is "immoral" so in turn, that really could have been a "moral" issue for them. Not allowing gay marriage could be considered "immoral" by some.

The term moral values can mean so many different things to so many different people that it means next to nothing as a statistic.

That's what I think, anyhow.

~Sarah

Exactly! Sure, it's probably true that many believe Bush had better moral values because of his religious faith, but it's also probably true that people thought Bush was less of a flip-flopper and was more sincere than Kerry. Rabid celebrities also tend not to be considered the crux of morality. That's why people shouldn't act as though the gay marriage issue was the only moral issue in the election, especially since gay marriage was shot down in states that voted for Kerry too!

Hey, moral values were the most important thing to me in this election, and I voted for Kerry.  For me it was an issue of, war on false pretenses, or war with honor, and I thought Kerry could give honor.

Anyway, that's just my view.

Cheers

Hey, moral values were the most important thing to me in this election, and I voted for Kerry. For me it was an issue of, war on false pretenses, or war with honor, and I thought Kerry could give honor.

Yes, this is an example of what I meant: that "moral values" mean so many different things to so many different people.

So, basically, I think the American people took whatever it was (a very wide variety, by the way) that was important to them (ie: gay marriage or opposing it, war or opposing it, abortion or opposing it etc.) and called that their "moral value". Maybe, by placing that name ("moral value") on whatever their opinion was made it seem more important or heart felt. Just a thought.

~Sarah

Reply #12 By: jeblackstar - 11/30/2004 4:23:52 PM Hey, moral values were the most important thing to me in this election, and I voted for Kerry. For me it was an issue of, war on false pretenses, or war with honor, and I thought Kerry could give honor.

How can some one who comits treason, give honor? Talk about false pretenses.

How can some one who comits treason, give honor? Talk about false pretenses.

Any of us could have said that... but that's not the point of this at all. Start a new article about treason and Kerry if you'd like, but stick to topic.

~Sarah