Do you have more information (dates, description of events that took place, circumstances under which they took place, etc.) on the war crimes that John Kerry allegedly committed during the Vietnam war? Obviously, I can't argue with facts, and so if you have some, I will defer to your position. However, I believe that the primary reason that Lyndie England is being reprimanded by the military (as well she should be) is not her gender, but the striking photographic evidence against her. Her claim that she was ordered to commit the acts seen in the photographs does not stand up when you consider that other photographs taken by the Abu Ghraib crew include many explicit personal photographs of Lyndie and other soldiers. Civilians are free to use their digital cameras as they choose, but that is not the case for members of the military. My intention is not to lay all the sins at Abu Ghraib at Lyndie's feet, because many others took part in the illegal and unprofessional activities there, but simply to propose that the graphic and disturbing photographs make the crimes impossible to ignore and quite difficult to stomach. If there were similar photos of John Kerry floating around, public opinion about him would be such that he would have to, at the very least, disappear from politics entirely. He would most definitely be labeled a war criminal. Crime and tragedy tend to fall under the category of "out of sight, out of mind".

youre kidding right?  

kerry was alleging (and admitting his culpability in as a consequence of his service as opposed to refusing to lay down his weapon and disobey direct commands) the us rules of engagement violated international accords.  he wasnt claiming he had personally violated the rules of engagement or done anything in violation of his orders. i've yet to meet anyone who actually engaged in combat on the ground in vietnam who did not witness or participate in one or more of the violations kerry alleges.   

since bush hasnt been shy about disparaging kerry's war record--and he is the acting commander in chief--id appeal to him to file charges against kerry 

Here's a quote Bakerstreet from John F. Kerry: "There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals." -John Kerry on NBC's "Meet the Press" April 18, 1971

From what I see, he's as guilty of committing atrocities as Lyndie England is.

that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages

do you see the part that says? all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down?  or the part about being ordered to use the .50 cals?

if rumsfeld and bush ordered lynddie to use the leash she was given by the government, you and she have a case.

 

I have to agree with kingbee here. You really cannot compare the two. Basically what Lyndie and the crew did was take common criminals and amuse themselves during the slow night shift by torturing, beating, and committing sexual crimes against them. This is not in any way acceptable conduct for a soldier in the United States Army. It is entirely proper for Lyndie to be confronted with charges in relation to her crimes. These charges have nothing to do with her sex, and you might have read that she is not the first or last soldier to be charged. I also believe that there is a distinction between actions taken in a combat situation and those taken when a soldier's life is not at risk. In all honesty, I have marginal knowledge of Kerry's Vietnam service beyond what is commonly found in the news. However, the quote you supplied did not, in my opinion, support the case you are making. It is a crime in the military to refuse orders (unless they are illegal) and as a leader, Kerry would be required to carry out orders, missions, and methods given to him. His actions might have been wrong, but were not illegal. This is an important distinction. Additionally, it is a strong and moral person who can say that they were wrong and that they were responsible. Lyndie's case is all about blaming others. Apples to oranges, I say.

So, Lyndie wasn't following orders? She was acting on her own accord with no influence whatsoever from anybody in a superior rank?

If you are familiar with the case I'm sure you know that they did some crazy, messed-up stuff. Some creative and juvenile stuff that, in my mind, speaks to her personal guilt. Additionally, had she been ordered to commit the crimes she is being charged with, she could not be ordered to enjoy them, although it is apparent that she found the acts amusing. Her character and integrity are called into question when you consider her actions outside of the abuse. For example, she should not have been working in her uniform without her dcu top and with a cigarette hanging out of her mouth. This indicates that she is at best a sloppy soldier and at worst has complete disregard for her position as a soldier and for the rules and regulations that are meant to guide her. Additionally, she is pictured in photographs nude as well as engaged in sex acts. As a deployed soldier, this would be illegal. She also took part in what were essentially soldier orgies with many soldiers looking on as others engaged in sex acts. Finally, she returned from Iraq pregnant as a result of an illegal sexual relationship with a superior. These examples are just a few items that are documented, but likely are only at the surface. She is not the only soldier guilty of these crimes, and she will not be the only one to be reprimanded. However, I have to again point out that the photographic evidence is what makes her case seem so much more vile and notable than other criminal activity that may go on within the military.

The weirdest thing I heard about this whole thing was she is up for more prison time for that sexual relationship with her superior officer(22 years) than for the abuse.(15 years).

The military takes things like that very seriously. People joke about it, but sodomy (to include heterosexual oral sex) is forbidden by the military. This is not something enforced - they don't do house checks or anything - but if the military had a soldier on other charges, they could to add it to the list of charges. Adultery is also something the military can charge someone with (remember the Muslim Captain from Guantanamo Bay?).

Same as the difference between George W Bush and a tree falling in the forest. They both fall over but nobody hears nor cares.

By the way, the fact you want a hamster faced b1tch for President says an awful lot more about you than it does about her.

I think PVT. England has become the scapegoat, I'm certain Abu Ghraib goes much higher then one private. I don't think her sex has anything to do with it, however. As for Kerry, there aren't any pictures of him committing acts, and all we have is his voluntary word to congress when congress wasn't attempting to prosecute him in the first place. It is reasonable to suggest that had he been indicted for war crimes, he probably would have cooperated and received immunity in exchange for testimony.

I'm convinced...Lynndie needs to run once she turns 35!

Reply #1 By: Texas Wahine - 8/6/2004 1:48:26 AM Do you have more information (dates, description of events that took place, circumstances under which they took place, etc.) on the war crimes that John Kerry allegedly committed during the Vietnam war?

While STILL an officer in the USN he had private talks with North Vietnamese officals in Paris. And that is right out of HIS own mouth! And that is TREASON! And as far as WarCrimes???? Go read his Senate hearing transcripts! He "admits" to doing ALL the things he accused everyone else of!

From what I see, what hurt Lyndie the most were the pictures and the sexual relationship with a superior officer. Although I don't think sex with a superior officer is worse than lying about sexual relations under oath, which many of Lyndie England's critics would agree isn't worthy of impeachment, I do understand why the pictures might incriminate her. If only she followed Kerry's example and didn't take pictures of her war crimes. Then she could've run for President.